The debate that wasn’t a debate (2/5)


Last Updated on 2020-01-17 by Joop Beris

The second part of the debate that wasn’t a debate, a conversation I had with Makayla, over on Twitter. The first part can be read here and I recommend you read that before reading this part.
In the first part of this conversation, we explored some of the things that I believe in, or rather: disbelieve in. At the end of this part, I asked Makayla the question: “What is that you believe in?” We pick up the debate that wasn’t a debate with her answer to that question.
Disclaimer: Makayla gave her permission for the creation of this post and it’s follow-ups. I promise to represent her part faithfully though for brevity, I will have to condense both her and my points.

Exploring Makayla’s point of view

Makayla misunderstood my question initially because she answered with a long message explaining why she believed. Since it happened that way, I am going to keep that order here. I have had to condense her answer for brevity though.

Well I cannot say I believe we are an accident but instead that God created everything “Genesis 1:1” and that we are without excuse to think otherwise because of Romans 1:20-22. In my opinion, there is far too much evidence of a Designer. […]

One example I find fascinating is the Golden ratio in mathematics. 1.681 is a mathematical formula that is found in almost everything (ex. Sea shells, our galaxy, plants, even us,…Its concept is always consistent in everything. It is a mathematical formula that when described through the simplified Fibonacci Sequence, it tells us where life has been and where it’s going. […]

Another example is the genetic code. It’s informationally more complex and detailed than any system humans could create, and it displays engineering complexity beyond anything imaginable. […]

When you said disbelief does not equal a closed mind and that you can change my mind and will do so, if presented with reasonable arguments sounds to me like the concept of free will. The fact that we choose our decisions or can even change your minds. To me if God did not give us a free will then we would just be mindless robots underneath His control and then no different than a rock or tree…but instead if He gives us the choice to believe in Him as it states Deuteronomy 30:19, John 1:12-3, John 8: 24,…would that not be a more meaningful? […]

So since I like painting, let’s say I go ahead and make a painting. It is my not something I created and therefore making me a creator? The painting would never exist had I not thought it up and put it on a canvas. I also believe because it is due to what it states in Genesis 1:27 “So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” […]

So mainly, I do not necessarily see it as a religion but instead having a relationship with God because He gave me the ability to be able to have one in the first place.

Like I said, it’s very long answer, even when I condense it to a few essential points she made. Like in the discussion, I am not going to discuss the validity of her arguments just yet. Instead, allow me to post the summary I gave her.

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying so please allow me to sum up what I get from your message. You believe in creation because of the following things:
– You see order and complexity in the world around you
– We have free will
– You are creative

Makayla agreed that this was a valid representation of her key points and then proceeded to answer the question about what she believed.

I believe in God who created the universe and this world specifically for you and me because He wants to have a genuine relationship with us and that everything else revolves ultimately around that. He was so serious about wanting a relationship with me and everyone else and knowing our sinful nature that we could never live up to any of His commandments in perfection, He then gave His only Son Jesus Christ who came into the world in human flesh to live amongst us and face the trials of the world with us. Yet He perfected them unlike us, so that we may be saved through our belief in Him and not our actions. He was crucified by men who did not want to believe, and even conquered death so that I may have life and a purpose and have a relationship with Him and not be condemned by my sinful nature if I choose to believe in Him and repent. But since He created me with a free will, I had to choose to believe in Him first even though this world wants me to belief otherwise and only then did my relationship start with him. I believe He only draws near to those who draw near to Him.

Let me save you...
Let me save you…

Like other Christians, Makayla appears to be unaware of the strange contradiction that a God who wants to have a personal relationship with us, has to save us from himself by sacrificing himself to himself so he can bring himself to forgive those who believe that a sacrifice can absolve the believer of any guilt. However, let’s forget that point for now since I chose not to debate about the content of her beliefs just yet. Rather, we moved onto how we can know something to be true and what constitutes evidence. That’s a topic for the following post of the debate that wasn’t a debate series.

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